Summary

Reddit’s r/medicine moderators deleted a thread where doctors and users harshly criticized murdered UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

Comments, including satirical rejections of insurance claims for gunshot wounds, targeted UHC’s reputation for denying care to boost profits.

Despite the removal, similar discussions continue, with medical professionals condemning UHC’s business practices under Thompson’s leadership, which a Senate report recently criticized for denying post-acute care.

Thompson, shot in what appears to be a targeted attack, led a company notorious for its high claim denial rates, fueling ongoing debates about corporate ethics in healthcare.

  • Tiefling IRL@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    11 months ago

    It’s kinda hilarious watching billionaire owned media try to suppress the fact that absolutely no one feels bad for the CEO. The same thing happened when some billionaires decided to visit the Titanic, and after the Trump assassination attempt.

    Everyone is so fed up with this country, shit is this close 🤌🏼 to the fan

    • audaxdreik@pawb.social
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      11 months ago

      I’m still absolutely flabbergasted at how quickly we all moved on from Trump literally getting clipped in an attempt on his life.

      They tried to muster some outrage and solidarity, but most of us just shrugged and went, “Damn. Oh well, maybe next time.”

        • ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net
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          11 months ago

          Gotta admit in hindsight, that was funny as hell.

          He got to pose for like a week like a badass and then quietly remove the ear bandaid.

        • audaxdreik@pawb.social
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          11 months ago

          You know I’m honestly not sure. Mostly good I think?

          Sidestepping the issue entirely of the act itself - strictly speaking more about the news cycle around it. I don’t know that it needed much more extensive, exhausting coverage. Just given the nature of the news currently, you gotta admit, surprising right? I’m not even trying to imply any sort of conspiracy about why it wasn’t more popular. I’m just saying, I think news cycle would’ve latched on harder if they could have, but the public gagged and said no thanks, we’re simply not interested, causing them to shift focus.

      • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        He didnt get clipped. He cut his hand on glass, on the ground, and didnt realize it, then transfered the blood to his head. Thats why his ear was miraculously fully recovered like a week later when he was caught on camera without bandages.

          • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            nothing besides the picture of him with blood on the side of his head with no visible injury, and another one with a bandage off a little after a week after the shooting with not a single sign of injury (ears dont heal that fast), and the fact that he absolutely refused to let anyone see his wound or the medical records.

            Trump is an opportunistic aggrandizemer.

            If he legitimately got even the slightest injury, he would have been ripping the bandage off 15 times a day and pointing at it and screaming about what the “evil woke liberal mob” did to him. And he didnt.

            he barely acknowledge it at all after a few days. Does that sound like the Trump you know? The trump that ruminates and obsesses for years, even decades over perceived and imagined slights? That constantly comments on them, regardless of relevance to the topic at hand?

            • PunnyName@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              My guess is that a piece of teleprompter glass grazed an old man’s ear. Ears are known to be bloody, moreso on older people. But there’s no way in fucking hell he actually took a bullet, he would’ve even have that ear.

              So yeah, your assessment fits.

              • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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                11 months ago

                Yeah, I figured it was from a dozen burly secret service guys wrestling a 78 year old man to the ground.

        • NostraDavid@programming.dev
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          11 months ago

          Weird, since I didn’t see blood on his hands (especially his right hand).

          Are we really starting conspiracy theories that are already going the direction of “yeah, but was it really an assassination attempt???”

          I don’t have any love for the guy, but holy shit, I don’t need Lemmy starting conspiracy theories. Back to reddit if you do.

        • ɔiƚoxɘup@infosec.pub
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          11 months ago

          Funny I always thought he was juicing like they do in professional wrestling, they cut themselves just a little bit to make it look like they’re injured.

    • sbv@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      r/all is covered with positive press for the shooting. Anything getting removed would have to be pretty egregious.

    • Farid@startrek.website
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      11 months ago

      I think it makes more sense to use the 🤏 emoji in that context, rather than the Italian gesture.

    • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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      11 months ago

      Its also hilarious that lemmy.world admins/mods did the same thing with early threads about this yesterday, nuking individual comments celebrating Thompson’s death and 24 hr instance wide banning the users that made those comments, then within 2 hrs they undid the bans, and by today seem to have just given up trying.

      https://lemmy.zip/post/27427367

        • hemmes@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I’m only seeing one upvote and one downvote lol

          I think people are having a hard time deciding whether to celebrate your comment or not

      • NotAnotherLemmyUser@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Taking a look at the recent modlog, as well as other comments around here, it looks like they’re trying to find the right balance for what’s okay and what has crossed the line.

        There are an alarming number of comments that are actively encouraging murder and the amount of upvotes that even the worst of those comments receive is sickening.

        • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Something something “kill the billionaires… in minecraft” /s

          There are an alarming number of comments that are actively encouraging murder and the amount of upvotes that even the worst of those comments receive is sickening.

          Can you really blame people, though? The poor and middle class been screwed and driven against each other by ultra-rich assholes for decades. Murder might not be the most ethical solution from a moral purist standpoint, but at least it has people talking and agreeing about the underlying problem.

        • bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net
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          11 months ago

          For some people in might be self defence, who knows who has a treatable illness they were denied coverage for.

      • psycho_driver@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        I mean it’s pretty obvious most people are in favor of making yesterday a National Holiday. It’s not like the more outspoken people were in the minority in their feelings.

        Even the most vile MAGAs have probably been screwed over by insurance companies, or at the very least had to spend valuable hours of their life fighting for something they should have already had.

        • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml
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          11 months ago

          I mean it’s pretty obvious most people are in favor of making yesterday a National Holiday.

          Brought to you by my being awake when I don’t want to be:

          Remember, remember!
          The fourth of December,
          A U-H-C CEO shot;
          I know of no reason
          Why the U-H-C season
          Should ever be forgot!
          
        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I mean it’s pretty obvious most people are in favor of making yesterday a National Holiday.

          Nobody Saw Nothin’ Day.

    • inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Nah dude, this shit finally hit the fan. Just wait. Terrorism works. Look at what bin Laden did to this country - is it not obvious to everyone alive before and after that he won? He wanted to destroy America and he did. What this was is an act of terrorism, and it’s going to work. Corrupt leaders all over the spectrum are getting nervous. Americans are armed to the teeth and pissed. It only takes a couple of lone wolves with intelligence and gun skills to do some major damage. And who doesn’t wanna be famous these days? I mean who doesn’t like this guy? I’d put him on the cover of time as person of the year. This is just the beginning of some very interesting times. I can’t believe it took this long.

      And even more uplifting, this isn’t politically divisive. There isn’t going to be right vs left retribution over this. The entire political spectrum save for a few uppity pearl clutchers (mostly lib elites) are celebrating this.

      • Akuchimoya@startrek.website
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        11 months ago

        School shootings are just a matter of course now, they’re not even newsworthy anymore unless there’s an Uvalde-level of utter incompetence involved. And even then, what happened? Nothing, nothing happened to the cowards who were complicit and accomplices to the murder of children by actively preventing people from around the killer. We’re told to get over it.

        So, you know, if I had to choose between school children being murdered as a matter of course and evil profiteers who revel and flourish on the pain and suffering of everyday people being murdered as a matter of course, I’d definitely chose the latter. I wouldn’t then tell people to get over it, I’d tell people the system obviously need to be dismantled and rebuilt entirely.

        My real preference would be that there are no evil profiteers who revel and flourish on the pain and suffering and that systems be functioning for the people in the first place, but unfortunately that’s not an option.

    • paddirn@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I think the only thing stopping people from posting even worse inflammatory shit about it is not wanting to show up on an FBI watchlist or something later on.

      • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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        11 months ago

        Let us take a moment to consider how long the list has grown these past few days.

        Maybe just keep track of who isn’t on the list instead?

        • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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          11 months ago

          It’s not worth it. No matter how hot the meme would be. Let it sizzle in your mind meatball. Drinking in the basement and playing Factorio is more important

    • ɔiƚoxɘup@infosec.pub
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      11 months ago

      I disagree. I think it just hit it. Think about how shooters crave noteriaty. Think of how this assain is seen as a hero. No. This is just the beginning.

      I think too many people saw this as a kind of justice that the courts have never and will never provide.

      I don’t advocate violence. I also don’t think this has a different outcome.

      • john89@lemmy.caBanned
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        11 months ago

        I actually agree (with you.) This could be the start of a movement.

        Hopefully this hero is protected and makes a clean escape. The response from law enforcement is disproportionate because it was a rich person that died instead of someone like us.

        Remember, they wouldn’t bat an eye if any of us were killed in this manner. It happens all the time and goes unsolved all the time because law enforcement primarily exists to protect rich people.

        • ɔiƚoxɘup@infosec.pub
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          11 months ago

          I’m anxious for what happens next. If this spirals, we’re about to start living in some “interesting times”.

    • Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Lol, I appreciate that final line in your comment. So many of us were that close back in 2020… Now things are slated to be worse, and I think I speak for at least millions of Americans when I say we are just fucking over it.

      When we’ve tossed out any semblance of justice in our country at the highest levels, literally ruling that the president is immune from all prosecution (you know, like a fucking king), then asshole corpos that indirectly murder countless people getting gunned down doesn’t exactly concern us. In fact, this sort of thing genuinely seems more just than what our highest courts are allowing.

      Shit is fucked up in this country, and I don’t think many of us want to pretend otherwise any longer. I’m not advocating violence, but I definitely don’t think I’ll lose sleep over this situation.

      • ɔiƚoxɘup@infosec.pub
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        11 months ago

        I’ll quote something that I heard from someone earlier today. “I don’t advocate violence, but I also can’t pretend that justice was not served.”

      • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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        11 months ago

        Royalty has forgotten that laws are the peaceful alternative to the guillotine. If you stop enforcing laws that protect the peasants what do you think is going to happen?

    • snooggums@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      The US mocked Trump for being shot at, then failed to keep him from being elected again.

      Pretty good sign that people are not going to direct that anger towards actually fixing the problems.

      • ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net
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        11 months ago

        My empathy for America was lost decades ago when literal children were gunned down in Sandy Hook.

        We didn’t collectively mourn as a nation and do anything. Instead, some went to defend guns. Others went to blame the victims, the parents who are literally holding their lifeless child in their hands.

    • piskertariot@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Billionaires who own the means of production trying to own the means of communication as well.

      When they can’t, they’ll own the government, and outlaw it.

      It’s like poetry.

  • floofloof@lemmy.ca
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    11 months ago

    One medical doctor, whose identity the Daily Beast confirmed, commented with sympathy for Thompson’s family and said the killer should be charged with murder, but then wondered about the damage the CEO had done.

    “I cannot even guess how many person-years UHC has taken from patients and their families through denials,” they wrote. “It has to be on the order of millions. His death won’t make that better, but it’s hard for me to sympathize when so many people have suffered because of his company.”

    “What has bothered me the most is people that put «fiduciary responsibility» (eg profits) above human lives, none more so than this company as run by him," wrote another medical doctor, who also spoke to the Daily Beast to confirm their identity. “When other’s human lives are deemed worthless, it is not surprising to have others view your life of no value as well.”

    These doctors know what’s up.

    • Snowclone@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      The level of greed is so much worse than any normal person understands. They do NOTHING. They aren’t medical field professionals, they don’t need to ever step foot in a hospital or clinic, they only inflate the cost, catastrophelicly with no insurrection, only horribly when you’re with them, create endless loopholes to deny coverage with, and use non medical, non trained or consulted opinions and reasoning to justify it, and they are all too educated to not know full well they are lying to get out of paying any bill ever.

      Denying someone with crippling medical issues access to treatment with lies and misinformation to shave one more sliver of profit for a parasitic middle man is so many orders of magnitude above evil it’s breath taking.

      • peopleproblems@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Greed is common throughout history. One might say it’s human.

        I disagree. The worst monsters wear human faces. At the top, you have the dragons with their hoards. The billionaires. The owner class. The ones who just accumulate. Then you have the dragon’s monsters. They may well be far worse than the Dragons themselves, but the dragons just demand more, they don’t care how. These monsters line up to take a bit of the hoard. The more they can deliver the dragons and their fellow monsters, the more they get themselves.

        And what do the monsters do? They lie. They cheat. They swindle and con. They budge their way into things in the phrase of “efficiency” and “improvement.”

      • YonderEpochs@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Denying someone with crippling medical issues access to treatment with lies and misinformation to shave one more sliver of profit for a parasitic middle man is so many orders of magnitude above evil it’s breath taking.

        Well said. Really wish people understood this better and how utterly psychopathic and heartless the entire idea of “maximizing profits” in this context is.

        Put another way - a for-profit insurance firm is a weird kind of company that does better when it refuses to provide what its customers pay for. It’s not some surprising or counterintuitive result, it’s baked into the business model, on purpose. That’s deeply malignant just at a glance, and it’s all we really need to know when deciding whether it should be involved with healthcare.

        • mpa92643@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          You know what’s really insane? Before the ACA was passed, there was no federal requirement for how much insurance companies had to pay out on healthcare costs. The ACA set a minimum of 85%, so no less than 85% of premiums has to actually go toward paying for medical services.

          Before that, they could literally just pocket 75 cents for every premium dollar if they wanted to with zero legal repercussions. I guarantee we’d be on our way there if the ACA were never passed.

          For-profit health insurance should be illegal. Same thing with for-profit hospitals. I’ve read stories about doctors whose hospitals were bought by for-profits or VCs and turned into patient mills where they’re forced to push unnecessary elective surgeries and provide the bare minimum of care to maximize profits.

          A healthy population is good for society and it should be something we invest in. We shouldn’t make a business out of someone getting sick, and then another business out of charging then exorbitant amounts of money for getting treatment, and then ANOTHER business to harass them because they can’t pay that exorbitant amount.

          • YonderEpochs@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            You’re absolutely right, I did kind of momentarily forget that, even having lived through it. They could also just deny care or coverage for “pre-existing conditions” and just drop you as a customer as soon as you get a major illness. And guess what, they did! That’s maybe the most egregious, but hey, we’re not lacking for contenders.

            The ACA felt like a serious change for good in this country at the time. And I gotta say, watching the way it got ratfucked, misrepresented, deliberately destroyed…I dunno, it was heartbreaking. I think it showed me what we were in for, I guess, almost a straight line passing through that and other things like Citizens United, repeal of Dodd Frank, and everything else that led to today. Some of those I can’t fault everyone for being unfamiliar with, but damn.

            Seeing how we responded to the ACA in particular as a nation was really telling. I knew idiots whose lives got directly measurably better by using it for their own insurance, and still thought it should go and voted for the folks who said they’d get rid of it. What do you even do there? Sad stuff.

  • EvilZ@thelemmy.club
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    11 months ago

    Well to be fair when someone speaks in such a polite manner I tend to assume the worst of them.

    As a French Canadian I do not support capitalism in its current form. I think we need to abandon our capitalist roots and create a new hybrid system which makes it more balanced but also, I would say I am. Living in a country where corporations don’t have as much power. You are right, I am not an American so I haven’t live what you have however I know that it’s current system is bull.

    As a personal note I have always supported Bernie Sanders however there is a huge portion of Americans who chose to close their eyes one hat is going on. I tend to follow the George Carlin philosophy to doubt my leaders good intentions while also taking personal responsibilities for the leader we have.

    It’s very easy to say that politics is shit but hard to actual do something about it.

    How many time has Senator Sanders been rejected and yet he still comes back and I respect him for that, always will be user he is the type of leader America needs if the democratic party wasn’t as broken… I don’t care for the republicans either as they have become a religious cult…

    Anyway, sorry if I became personal, it was not justified. All the best to you and your family. Quebec and Vermont have always shared similar vakurdt

  • Echostorm@programming.dev
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    11 months ago

    I have been following the news about Brian Thompson’s assassination in New York, and I am astounded by the flood of sympathy the media has poured out for him. Why? This man spent his entire career working tirelessly to deny healthcare to millions of Americans, all in the name of lining his own pockets and enriching shareholders. Yet the media praises him for his “kindness” and “generosity.” Let me be clear: pushing your company’s claim denial rate to nearly double that of your most cold-hearted competitors, bankrupting families through deceptive fine print and delay tactics, is not kindness, and it is not generosity. No, setting up boiler-room style offices with denial scoreboards is one of the most inhuman things I can imagine.

    I spent nearly a decade writing software to help hospital systems fight insurance claim denials, and I can tell you, these insurers are getting better at it every year. They deny even the most justified claims, banking on the fact that most people won’t have the energy, resources, or will to fight back. And for the majority, they’re right. We had a team of a dozen nurses and PAs working alongside twice as many analysts. These were people who knew the system inside and out. We knew the deadlines, the bureaucratic jargon, the documentation required, and we tracked every claim meticulously. But even armed with all that knowledge and experience, we couldn’t win them all. On a good month, we might win two-thirds of the denials. That was considered a success.

    What’s even worse is that for every claim we fought, there were countless others that never even made it that far, we only got denials on services that actually happened. A patient’s doctor tells them they need surgery, but an insurer like UnitedHealth says no and that’s it. The patient gives up and it is difficult to imagine they get better.

    If you’ve ever had a serious medical condition—and I pray you haven’t—you know how much it drains you, how it strips you of your will to do anything. When every moment is agony, you don’t have the strength to sit on hold for hours, fill out endless forms, or chase down a bureaucratic system designed to wear you down. All you want is to sleep, because that’s the only place that pain can’t find you. How many people have simply lacked the strength to fight back, and ultimately succumbed to their conditions? How many families have been driven into poverty, their lives torn apart by a single emergency, all because of these executives’ policies?

    We all know someone who has been through a health insurance nightmare and we also know that while political changes could probably help this problem the reality now is that these people are making a choice to run their companies this way, knowing full well the impact of their greed and indifference.

    Where are your tears, your headlines, for the thousands of people and families whose lives have been destroyed and whose loved ones have died because of these same executives?

  • EvilZ@thelemmy.club
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    11 months ago

    Life is short and filled with potential that sometimes met and other times robbed.

    Having lost many members of my family, I don’t wish it on others.

  • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Meddit is pretty high quality so it doesn’t surprise me. They don’t like too much shit posting by people without flair.

  • Pyrin@kbin.melroy.org
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    11 months ago

    Got a problem with my commentary? Redditard is the offense? Well FUCK YOU and your fucking snowflake mentality, you emotionally charged bitch!

    • sbv@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Reddit has had entertaining, informative, and thoroughly enjoyable discussions in this event. It’s nice to see.

  • Rapidcreek@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    I find some comments here disturbing. The man may have been not the best example of ethical behavior, but he is still a murder victim with a family who will no doubt miss him. No one deserves to be shot in the back on a city street. If that was true, it’s not long until your number comes up.

    The internet is full of false bravado, and few morals.

    • pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      11 months ago

      I have no sympathy for people who are responsible for and profit from killing people. All the people who died preventable deaths because insurance wouldn’t pay to save their lives had family too. I’m not about to go out and shoot people but I’ll damn well cheer for someone killing an evil bastard.

        • pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          11 months ago

          Lmao comparing the worst person on death row to an oligarchs is like comparing a kitten to a demon, they’re not even in the same zip code of evil

      • Rapidcreek@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        It’s fine if you want to play judge and jury, just try not to do it with someone’s life. Thanks.

        • pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          11 months ago

          My yin, if there’s anyone who’s deaths should be celebrated, it’s oligarchs. I think they should be stopped nonviolently and preferably legally, but guess what, they’ve removed all choices other than violence.

        • chingadera@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Oh fuck right off. This dude got off easy. Shot on the back, no fear, quickly passing out and passing on.

          Compare that to the millions of people that suffered, not just died of preventable illness, but suffered, and so did their families. Some of them still suffering not only emotional debt but financial debt too.

          You will never justify this stance, and you know it.

            • chingadera@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Broken brain.

              “Don’t be the judge jury and executioner”

              We have tried time and time again to let the “legal system” figure this shit out, and time and time again, billionaires just pay their way out with fines or just postpone it indefinitely while they commit more crimes against humanity.

              Idk if you get some kind of justification by being knowingly incorrect around of a bunch of other people, but we can all see through it. Be part of the solution or keep it to yourself.

                • chingadera@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  It’s honestly the same shit when you factor in the fact that most people are either in poverty or extremely close to it with a lot of those because of this dudes leadership.

                  You can make it look small by doing the .04B, you’re also missing his .02B (20M if you wanna do regular people numbers) in stock options, but that’s still an absolute fuck ton of money, and mixed with his decisions to willing fuck so many people over, I know he wasn’t a friend.

                  We’re only talking about publicly disclosed money here too.

      • P1nkman@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        I’m 100% sure he’s responsible for at least the same amount of people who died in 9/11. And then add a zero or three. His decisions alone, only to increase profits.

        I’m hungry, when do we eat?

    • Goodmorningsunshine@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      This was front side of a city street if that makes you feel any better. Pretty sure his family can dry their tears with their millions in inheritance achieved through their sweet daddykins turning so many other children who will grow up a fuckton less well off into orphans.

    • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I find some comments here disturbing.

      He wasn’t declared dead by the ICC, so he’s still alive.

    • ReallyActuallyFrankenstein@lemmynsfw.com
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      11 months ago

      I agree, but seeing someone committing that crime for personal retribution and/or as a symbolic gesture in this literally cripplingly nightmarish private health insurance hell, all I can muster is, “This is perfectly normal in this moment.” This rant isn’t specifically directed at you, but just to elaborate:

      He probably is a very nice person when you talk to him, and he is probably a caring husband and father. He probably has complex ways of resolving the cognitive dissonance between who he felt he was and what UHC is doing. But it’s hard to deny he was in a position with decision-making power to make millions of lives substantially better or worse, to enable or disable the worst excesses of private insurance, and the buck stops there if anywhere. This chart has made the rounds including on Lemmy, showing a 32% denial rate for claims, which is astounding.

      Frankly, we all have had so many moments with health insurance where we’re basically told they cannot help us, given arcane and pretextual reasons, and given a silent ultimatum of “you want us to honor our agreement? Make us.” Then we waste so many unpaid hours of our dwindling or nonexistent free time creating paperwork pointing out the obvious injustice, and eventually they may honor a claim without admitting fault or changing their practice. Mostly they probably just ignore us and we go away, or respond with the same Kafka-esque administrative slop until we can’t eat any more. It was built that way, and who but the CEO is responsible?

      This is not a situation entirely created by him, but most of us are collectively cooking on a stove and none of us have access to the controls. He did, and he turned up the temperature. Not at all surprising, and it’s very hard to have sympathy for him. I have plenty of sympathy for his kids.

    • Canonical_Warlock@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      11 months ago

      The man was a mass murderer. But because he wore a suit and did it from an office it was OK. If a gunman put down any other mass murderer noone would complain.

    • halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      He’s a merchant of death. Just like a weapons dealer. Possibly even worse, because his company has the power to prevent suffering, and explicitly chooses not to. Morally, I’d say that is worse than selling weapons.

      They deny claims at twice the industry average, so clearly they don’t need to, they choose to. There is zero chance he was unaware how many denials his company was sending out, and the only way a rate double his competition could be achieved was by purposely denying things that should be covered.

      Extrajudicial killings are of course not good, but I don’t really care about objectively bad people getting what’s coming to them.

    • GBU_28@lemm.ee
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      11 months ago

      I also believe, that if given the chance to work for the same paycheck, lots of loud lemmings would hush up about their position real quick. Money corrupts