Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL
The same reason people hate leftists, feminists, trans athletes, “gamer girls”, people on welfare, blacks, etc. An image the right cultivated of the group, out of convenient easily-hateable annoying people in it that they could use to create a generalization/stereotype out of. It’s something that’s able to happen to any group, I could portray any hobbyist or activist in this way the same exact way as these “annoying” groups are portrayed, but the right is particularly willing to just flat out lie, slander, and cheat their way into making countercultural/anti-status-quo groups look as absurd as possible, to the point that the majority of the population falls for it (even those that don’t consider themselves to be conservative).
I’ll make a comparison. Conservative/“anti-sjw” thumbnails often have a picture of some angry-looking rainbow haired woman, usually the same few, in order to be like “look how irrational and crazy these feminazis are, she must hate men so much” and like 4 out of 5 of those times it’s a picture of a woman that was protesting a literal neo-nazi gathering or something, not some sort of radical crazy man-hating feminist. But the internet has conditioned the average person to look at someone like that and immediately think they’re an irrational “feminazi”, and conservatives showing these pictures everywhere and making 100 videos on the same person makes people subconsciously believe they’re rampant and have a massive (and bad) grip on society.
Same kind of thing happens with vegans, you have the same 10 or so internet vegans people use to portray veganism that conditions people to think poorly of the concept “vegan”, and when these influencers are confronted about it they say “I don’t hate veganism, I just hate the annoying vegans” then they go onto Twitter to complain about the vegans and how they’re irrational for not eating meat and their brains must be de-evolving or something. They know what they’re doing, but they can hide behind plausible deniability, and the majority of viewers fall for it.
Lot of words to describe cherry-picking, but… yeah. All of that is true.
Not even a vegan. I love meat. But the classic image of the vegan that constantly reminds you of the fact is not at all consistent with my experience with the several in my life…
Defensiveness
I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.
From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.
Imagine that you go to an outdoor barbecue on a bright Summer day.
And some guy who is an extreme Muslim is going around telling some women that they’re not dressed in a modest enough way and that everybody should follow the Teachings of the Prophet and how life is a lot better when people follow the Teachings of the Prophet.
It’s not Islam that’s the problem, it’s certain kinds of people, their proselytising and, worse, their trying to force or even impose their own moral values on others.
Same with Veganism and some kinds of Vegans: because it’s a moral choice some of those who practice it have the very same behavioural disfunctions as religious nutters and because they’re the most visible representatives of it they just cause many to draw negative conclusions about the entire thing.
I don’t hate veganism.
I just don’t like the militant and pompous attitude that some vegans seem to possess, that they feel that they have to flaunt their vegan lifestyles on others over.
Yes, go eat as many vegetables as you like, go eat meat alternatives and whatever. You do you, eat what you want. But I don’t want to ever have someone like that coming up to my face and tell me what I’m allowed to eat in their eyes.
I’ve seen more aggression about food choices from meat lovers.
And who, in your estimation, threw the first rock?
I fail to see the relevance of the question
If the question is why do people hate XXX, doesn’t it matter who is the first to critique? It seems to me that if you provide an unprovoked critique, unless the subject of the critique agrees with your perspective they are likely to… dislike said critique or the person providing it, yeah?
Hence the relevance of who provided the first critique: right or not, people might not like it.
So?
100% it’s just cognative dissonance. Everyone knows meat is bad but most can’t come to terms that they’re too weak to quit it. This is especially painful when people are confronted directly and a self-defence mechanism kicks in.
It’s ok to be a bit weak sometimes, everyone has a lot of going and has to choose their battles. Our contemporary culture hates to acknowledge this thus creating a lot of binary tension.
It takes a “special” kind of person to take something so ingrained in culture and still say “I’m not gonna do that,” usually a slightly crazy and/or neurodivergent person. I think this is partly why there are so many “insane” vegans, because it’s self selecting for people who are outside the norm.
I don’t even mention to most people I’m vegan, usually just an excuse like “meat makes me feel sick” because the average person will think I’m going to give them a 20 minute lecture.
To anyone who is the vegan who will give the 20 minute lecture, please consider if your goal is actually animal welfare, you can hardly ever debate someone out of something they like. Instead, just show people easy dishes you made that they actually enjoy (pasta with spaghetti sauce, French fries, vegetable stir fry, roasted veggies with olive oil) and you’ll often find they start cooking more vegan food (or at least less meat), and also talk more positively about veganism
If you accept that there are moral/ethical problems with eating meat (contribution to climate change, health concerns, animals being killed and eaten, whatever), and choose to eat meat anyway, and encounter a vegan, what has to happen?
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice. Most people are cowards and protect the ego at any cost. Rather than shrugging and saying “yeah, i should eat less meat. Good for you taking the high road”, which requires accepting that you’re not being the best, you can instead grab onto any reasons why no it’s really them that sucks. That’s easier, more comfortable, and doesn’t require any painful introspection or changes.
It’s the same mechanism when people get mad at cyclists, pedestrians, people who go to the gym, people who don’t shop at Walmart, whatever. They’re doing something that makes you feel bad in comparison. Most people are terrible at that and will lash out instead of doing anything productive.
Alternatively, or maybe additionally, people are really tribal, and once they adopt the idea that vegans (or cyclists, or people driving small cars, or people wearing sandals, whatever) are in the outgroup, then they enjoy being hostile to them.
People are ego driven emotional morons. All of us. Me, too. It’s terrible.
Your first sentence answers the actual question.
Well…aCtUAllY
You can accept that they are making a better choice,
That’s exactly where it starts. You simply assume that vegans are the better people. And then you preach. That’s exactly what people dislike in vegans and similar people.
“Making a better choice” doesn’t “make you a better person”, necessarily.
And also like I said in my post, just accept that you’re not always going to be a perfect person. None of us are. You don’t have to get mad at anyone else for that.
If we remove the ethic argument from the conversation, veganism is definitely a better choice for the planet, factually.
People have a hard time detaching their ego from the issue at hand. Since veganism is better for the planet, they are “better” in that specific area of their life.
But it doesn’t mean that vegans are better people than non-vegans, because we don’t know what else they do.
Eat meat if you want. I do. But I don’t feel personally attacked because vegans are right about the carbon footprint of meat, and they preach for it.
That choice is steeped in privilege though, and I think it’s worth acknowledging that. Food choices are just something we shouldn’t be judging other people on, regardless of what those choices are. “Fed is best” applies through all stages of life.
You are right, but we use this privilege to eat more meat instead of more vegetables. So my point still stands.
And even then, meat is way pricier than vegetables, so the privilege argument is shaky.
But as I said, assume the fact that you eat meat and that it is more damageable for the environment and after that, if you are in a position where you can afford to eat less or no meat, do it if you feel like it.
Some people do, but it’s not as easy as “just eat better” for everyone. If we were arguing about how people aren’t eating healthy I think very few people would be frame it as just a choice.
Cheap meat, fast food (few if any veggie options, and basically no vegan ones) - these are staples of the poor. There’s a limit to how much rice and beans anyone wants to eat, especially when just getting a couple pounds of ground beef is a luxury. I don’t think it’s right to shame people for taking the beef. Or judging them for taking it.
I think if vegans want to change the world they should be campaigning against poor practices in the industry, not attacking the guy who just worked 16 hours at a minimum wage job and is choosing to grab a mcdouble rather than going home to cook a beyond burger. Is one better for the environment and world? Sure. But it’s not that guy’s fault the system is rigged in favor of the mcdouble, and reminding him of the fact that he’s making the world worse isn’t furthering the goal of making the world better.
I understand your point and I agree. But a lot of privileged people (i’m included in that) should definitely consume less meat or none at all.
This is a strange argument that the problem with vegans is that they don’t do enough for the poor?
I haven’t seen any vegans protesting in a 7/11. It’s usually high end butcher or restaurants.
So again, I agree with what you say, but it doesn’t make sense in the current frame of discussion.
No. It is one better choice. Does not say shit about the millions of other choices we do.
Thank you for preaching and proving my and others point.
If the fact bothers you, maybe you should refrain from discussions on this topic. Or tell me why it is not a “better choice”.
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others. And create in- and out- groups via labeling.
Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food, because meat is heavily subsidized compared to vegetarian options. Also, because being vegan/vegetarian is not the default, many products are overpriced.
Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.
So it is not just about good or bad, it is also about privilege and class. So people should not go around making statements about other people making “worse” choices.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others.
I’m not sure we agree on what “lording over” is. Like if someone says “Sorry, I can’t eat that, I’m vegan” is that lording it over you? Pretty much every vegan I’ve encountered has been polite, and at about the level of someone with a food allergy. Sometimes they check the ingredients label.
Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food
no it doesnt? Im 1,000% willing to bet youve never been vegan before. Plant based diets are way cheaper, just go to your local store and look at eh price for a kilo of carrots or potatoes vs a a kilo of chicken.
Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.
also complete bullshit.
Rice and beans are staples in poor countries. Meat is for the rich.
Yes. Meat is expensive, and should be expensive.
However meat replacement products cost even more, but they should be cheaper, because they are cheaper to produce.
Diary free ice cream is more expensive. Cow milk is cheaper than oat milk.
This isn’t just about not eating meat or animal products, this is the whole “vegan lifestyle” food that is unreasonable more expensive.
Like buying more expensive vegan salt or sugar instead of normal one.
And if you don’t do that, you are not a “true vegan™”. And the vegan police will come and get you!
“Oh, the pepper you just ate was fertilized by pig manure, sorry you aren’t vegan anymore. You should have bought the more expensive vegan pepper.”
You don’t need to buy luxury items to eat healthy vegetables. Such a weird defense.
I’m not sure why you are making up imaginary arguments. Have you ever heard anyone ever accuse someone else of “not being vegan anymore” because they ate a non vegan product? I know quite a few vegans, I try to be vegan myself (but quite often cave, cheese is delicious), and all the vegans I know would be simply thrilled to know that someone was making an effort at all. Literally no one cares if you aren’t 100% vegan, basically no one is anyway. But if you decide once a week to eat a vegan meal instead of a steak, great!! That’s still helping the planet, better for the animals, etc.
But making up these ridiculous vegan cliches doesn’t help anyone, it just makes more people annoyed at each other.
The fact that you just think people should live more poorly and with less nutrition if they can’t afford the fru fru stuff is really disturbing.
I’ve been rive and beans only poor before. It sucked a lot. And on the rare occasion I could get some meat or cheese in my diet I definitely wasn’t in a position to be worried about which choice was “worse”. I just wanted some freaking variety. I should be able to have that. Everyone should.
Donate to your local food bank!
I just stated a fact. Not what I think nor what others should do. I do however think you underestimate how healthy vegetables are. I never said people should only eat rice and beans.
Now go and enjoy your flesh, because otherwise there won’t be variety (that sounds really dumb btw).
TIL beans are expensive and privileged.
Pardon my flippant remark. I couldn’t help myself. I appreciate you weighing in on this thread.
I can appreciate how avoiding animal products can seem challenging if you have no direct examples to refer to, but it’s really not. There are literally entire ethnic groups that live cradle to grave without eating meat.
Like for me growing up poor, a defacto vegetarian diet was the norm for us, so it’s just how I eat 90% of the time. Likewise, if you grew up around people who know about nutrition, you get used to planning your meals without relying on meat/dairy/etc to fill in the gaps.
I do believe it’s more ethical to avoid meat entirely, even though I myself don’t. I just try my best to keep it lower impact.
Do-gooder derogation Basically, some people perceive others’ moral choices as criticism or as some kind of bragging.
There’s another factor here. People who are vegan, sober, poly, don’t drive, and any number of choices are breaking societal norms. Most people don’t even think about these things as choices. They do the default. Realizing that there’s a choice, and that this person decided not to do the default, puts people off. It makes them uncomfortable. They begin to question things they’ve never had to evaluate.
Fascinating! Thank you for this article. It exactly describes what’s happening: “oh, you think you’re better than us? I’ll have another steak!”
This is really easy to test in fairly small social groups. The next time you’re in a group ordering pizza, say you want cheese, because you don’t eat meat. Now watch everyone else order, or change their order to, double meat supreme with bacon. It’s almost like they can’t help themselves. It’s hilarious how easy you can change other people’s behavior.
This is by far the most frustrating thing
And some just see those who militantly focus on attacking fellow individuals instead of the systems that are actually to blame (but which they otherwise support and/or benefit from, like capitalism, racism, and ableism) counterproductive, annoying, and hypocritical.
The militant vegans I have come across, and being vegan myself, it’s a lot, far too many (E: to the point I actively avoid vegan spaces), are almost exclusively drowning in so much privilege, they can’t see how ridiculous they’re being in their bizarre militancy of policing other people’s plates instead of the actual industries abusing animals (and humans, who these vegans rarely to never pay any thought to, not out loud or in their actions, anyway).
(before I even hit send: if you feel personally attacked by my comment - that’s a sign for you to think about it with yourself and ideally do something about it, not try and prove me wrong, inevitably proving me 100% right)
I wonder if being within those circles, you’ve been exposed to certain ugliness on a more intimate level; with people who feel comfortable enough in their in-group to express their more radical thoughts. Anecdotally, I’ve known a few vegans but have never been lectured nor had views pushed on me.
Hell, the only time I ever hear about the radical, pushy vegan is when people complain about them. On the flip side, I’ve been exposed to meat eaters who seem to get offended when someone mentions the concept of veganism, as if someone else not eating animal products is somehow a trigger for them.
Again, all anecdotes here, I’m just figuring one’s exposure to the vocal minorities on either side of the conversation is where you run into the problems.
It’s the privilege thing that gets me every time. Not everyone can participate in your exclusive food club and be healthy and fulfilled. Let people do the best they can with what they have.
I think people hate vegans more than veganism. The most annoying x% makes the other (100-x)% look bad
Choose your own x I don’t want dunks from either side lol
no one hates veganism, we just hate the vegans
I’m an ex vegan (about 5 years) so I’ve been on both sides if it. Here’s my opinion.
When I was a vegan it was very much a part of my identity. It was something that I thought about 2-3 times (at least) per day when I ate, and any time I went to buy food. I remember being actually insufferable about it for a long time and I’m pretty sure I’ve lost friends over it, being annoying and preach to a friend’s husband and then eventually just not getting invited back for game night. So people are definitely feeling burned/rejected/otherized by vegans who, if not just coming right out and saying it, strongly infer that you are a “bad person” for consuming even small amounts of animal products, or at least let you know that you’re being judged for it. As an ex-vegan I’ve experienced this myself.
On the other hand, non-vegans are also insufferable about food. My friend in college didn’t like cheese. Hated how it tasted, hated the way it felt in his mouth. But he loved pizza. He would often buy pizzas for everyone, with cheese on, pick the cheese off himself, and eat it without. I swear that every time he did this someone would say something about it, “what? You don’t like cheese? Why?!” I personally had to endure a lot of weird questions and looks, and comments when after volunteering for a whole day at a baseball field for my son’s team, and they served pizza after which I just refused. I just quietly didn’t get myself any, and people had like 20 questions about it. I didn’t even bring up that I was a vegan, I just said I wasn’t hungry, which was odd and apparently unacceptable.
Vegans and vegetarians also get judged for their diets, there are plenty of non-v people who will become like preemptively defensive about it, and let you know they think you’re weak and unhealthy. You get otherized and judged, even if you dont care what people eat and you just patiently say that its a personal choice, for health or the environment or whatever. This actually deepens the in-group acceptance/out-group rejection of everyone involved. The next time a vegan has to hear about their choices they’ll be less patient with the person asking; the next time that person eats an egg around a vegan and gets lectured, they’ll be less patient and around and around it goes.
I have theories about why this is, some of which maybe are apparent from what I’ve written. I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted. I’ll get into it if anyone gives a shit.
But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not. This is the thing that drove me away from veganism: I think that vegans are right about a lot of things, but they can’t actually see the world for what it is, they can mostly only see through this lens. This is basically the same problem with liberals, conservatives, religious, atheist, whatever. Its the cult of the individual having eroded any experience of interconnectedness, even though we are interconnected. As such, people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.
For me it’s the high-horse holier than thou attitude most of them seem to carry in online conversations. I know a fee vegans and they are mostly fine in person after the first few months of radicalization, but I imagine they just suppress it in person to maintain the acquaintanceship and then bitch in their vegan echo chambers about how “my co-worker who knows I’m vegan had the audacity to order a hamburger and eat it in front of me knowing I’m vegan, does he know he’s destroying the world with that Burger… AITA?”
If you’re looking for scientific answers, good luck they, Inrhjnjbmost people stop worrying about micromanaging people after a few years of academia.
There is a push from the meat industry to make hating veganism the cool thing is what I feel is going on. Some militant vegans are honestly annoying.
