What made everybody move from a corporate social media platform to another corporate social media platform instead of the fediverse?
After all, the Fediverse and Activitypub is much more mature than Bluesky and the copycat AT protocol or Threads and … whatever they use.
I use both, but honestly, some mastodon users can’t help but be outright patronising and hostile to newcomers.
The whole “we don’t do that here” vibe clearly puts folk off. Weirdly, it isn’t the long term users that do that, bug more recent converts.
Why do you think that is?
There’s a few technical and non technical reasons someone might be on Bluesky/AT instead of Activity Pub. Protocol specific there’s:
) Account ownership (theoretically at least, migration is still in development). Though it’s hidden behind domain based identification there’s a cryptographic key that let’s you migrate to another PDS even if yours is down or banned you.
) Performance. Hosting something like a PDS is lighter than an Activity Pub instance.
) User level configuration. Bluesky let’s you set custom moderation lists and algorithms, something you can’t on Activity Pub.
) Compatibility. Building something like a link aggregator on AT that is compatible with a microblogging platform like Bluesky is likely a lot easier then Activity Pub since AT is broken up into PDSs and Relays. (To be fair compatibility does work on Activity Pub, but it’s got jank).
There’s also some less technical reasons as well:
) Bluesky is a platform and you don’t need to learn a protocol to use it. Yeah it’s not that hard to learn how any of the big three protocols work, but it’s also not that hard to change your car’s oil or sew ripped cloths instead of replacing them - but how many people do those? I’d guess 80% of Lemmy is an IT guy between 20-45 so it can get a little echo chambery on how easy tech is. One if the reasons Threads makes up 99.5%+ of the fediverse.
) Defederatiation is becoming a mess. If some random Joe has a friend on Bluesky & Nostr (both bridged), a few on threads, and a few spread across different instances; yet he can’t reach all but 1 or 2 of them from the instance he chose to join on joinmastodon it might be time to reconsider how things are done. Techy people might have no problem sifting through a long list of servers to find the right one, but somebody who’s already on the fence is probably going to quit at that point.
) Bluesky has a more mainstream culture, while the fediverse has very specific thoughts and ideas. Had I said I was on Windows you all might have put a hit out on me 😆
Had I said I was on Windows you all might have put a hit out on me 😆
Sorry for that
Is it really that surprising that large companies with lots of money can advertise better than user run instances of open source software?
because mastodon because dismissed twitter users concerns and thoughts the first exodus and bluesky implemented them in a way that’s closer to twitter.
… what
There have been some complaints about Mastodon for years; both specific (“quote tweets”) and vague (get rid of shitty, often bigoted replies for profiles with a lot of followers or with a marginalized identity).
Mastodon largely hasn’t implemented them. Maybe Bluesky has. (I don’t have a BS account.)
The fediverse has many micro blogging implementations outside of mastodon if you don’t like their featureset (and they federate with each other, unlike bluesky). The only features I couldn’t find are those that contributed to making Twitter the dystopian toxic space that it is.
Using another ActivityPub-based interface is a LOT to ask for many users. They want a simple to pronounce name, they can stick in their browser’s universal bar and be on a sign-up page in less than 3 clicks without making any more choices.
😞
Well I am speaking about users who may be picky about mastodon’s features. If someone is picky, I don’t imagine they’d care much about just finding a platform with their preferred features, similar to how they didn’t like mastodon and found bluesky instead.
How was your dentist appointment?
Instance picking can be overwhelming. Making people just not even try it.
I do think a big challenge for the fediverse is how to ease that. And make it like e-mail where @whocares is not that important and it’s easy to actually have a custom domain/instance.
And, of course, to achieve this instance admins should be really be responsible with defederations and bans. And only use it as last resort, probably only because of legal reasons. Not because “I don’t like that instance admins main political thesis”. Probably that kind of blocks are better to be left to the user.
I think the mobile app developers should run their own instances and default to that so it feels less confusing to new users.
that’s not a bad idea at all. much more beginner friendly to download an app and register from there rather than having to do it externally and then coming back to the app to log in
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Mastodon overwhelmed me. I hopped on the website and had no idea what I was looking at. I didn’t understand federation. I basically had the option of what niche hobby to join on Mastadon and no indication that I would he able to access a broader forum, so I said “Well, this fucking sucks.” and left.
Threads and BlueSky are likely as accessible as making an account and you’re done.
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I found it tiresomely political and strangely dogmatic way too much of the time. I didn’t get the impression that there was a wide cross-section of people on there.
Several reasons:
- Mastodon is REALLY unfriendly from a UX perspective. To many, federation is a solution to a problem that doesn’t really exist for them. In their mind, the early model of federation is like email, a problem that was “solved” years ago by having one corporate product that was much better than others (Gmail).
- Reiterating, why should people care about the fediverse?
- The fediverse is lacking the user numbers, and those that do post don’t really interact with others. Spend some time with the newhere tag and you’ll see a lot of people that make the occasional post, send a lot of replies, and end up leaving because that engagement ends up with maybe 2 followers. It’s rather clique-y.
- Some fediverse sites (e.g. Lemmy) have bad reputations, and Mastodon partly suffers from this. Outside of tech, where people argue with each other all the time anyway, there isn’t really anything worthwhile being posted.
Generally speaking, how is Mastodon any better than Bluesky? How is Lemmy any better than Reddit? If you can’t answer that in a way the average person gives a fuck about, what’s the argument for using them?
To many, federation is a solution to a problem that doesn’t really exist for them. In their mind, the early model of federation is like email, a problem that was “solved” years ago by having one corporate product that was much better than others (Gmail).
To add, on top of that, the fediverse is like if gmail could just randomly decide to stop receiving emails from outlook addresses and there’s nothing any user can do about it except make another email for when they want to email outlook users.
I don’t think fediverse proponents know just how catastrophically this terminates their entire pitch in the minds of 99% of internet users
if gmail could just randomly decide to stop receiving emails from outlook addresses and there’s nothing any user can do about it
This is the case right now.
There’s good reasons GMail doesn’t do that, but there’s absolutely nothing technical preventing from doing that, and I can’t think of anything that legally prevents them from doing that.
Not leagaly but users will be frustated and leave. They will rollback within a day so you will not need to worry too much.
No ads. Lightweight app/website.
and those that do post don’t really interact with others
I’ve found quite the opposite on Mastodon. I get WAY more interaction on there than I ever did on Twitter.
I do a radio show on Monday nights. Despite having more followers on Twitter I never really managed to attract many listeners. Dropped it for a few years and started up again a few months back, publicising solely through Mastodon. Engagement with it is three or four times what it was before.
It’s essentially a request show, and there have been a couple of weeks where I’ve not had to pick any songs to fill the time, all of it has been filled by listener requests.
That said, that’s only my experience, it may be different for others.
As depressing as it sounds, most Twitter users actually like Twitter. They’re fully okay with all of its dystopian features (some even idolize pre-Musk Twitter). Mastodon is a break from Twitter in many ways, whereas bluesky is just another Twitter in their eyes (many of them probably dgaf about federation and ignore it).
Twitter and YouTube are the least toxic social media platforms I use. I know toxicity exists on both but it is not being served to me. My feed is what I want to see and only that.
On the other hand, something like Reddit or Lemmy needs a huge amount of curation to keep the feed even half decent.
- marketing
- not having to pick the instance when registering
- people who have experienced Mastodon’s hermetic culture discouraging others from joining
- algorithms helping discover people and content to follow
- marketing
and I’m saying that as a firm Mastodon user and believer.
I’m not on any of the services currently, but I have tried Mastodon in the past and point 4. was what made me bounce off it. I know Mastodon flaunts its algorithm-free feed as almost a point of pride, but as a user it just doesn’t do it for me. I could not get it to serve me the type of content I wanted the way I wanted, and it just felt like way too much work for what I was looking for.
I solved this issue by following multiple tags that interest me. People tend to tag their posts on Mastodon it seems, so discovering posts about, say, wine and cacti is as easy as following #wine #cactus #cacti #redwine #oragewine and so on and so forth - it’s working pretty good for me without an algorithm recommending stuff to me, maybe it’s worth a try?
I’d still rather have algorithmic recommendations of what’s been “hot” lately in the tags I follow over a chronological feed. But I’m considering giving Sharkey/Firefish/Iceshrimp another go.
2 and 3 are massive. I’m on Mastodon, but am having a much better time on Bluesky. Mastodon is full of gatekeeping and policing and people complaining - Bluesky is just fun and interesting, like Twitter 12 years ago
like Twitter 12 years ago
So don’t use it then. Gotcha.
Who are these people who actually FIND users go follow on either service???
I have Bluesky. I have Mastodon. I log into each every few months, realize nothing has changed, and there is nobody to follow.
Then I don’t use either, until I wonder a few months later “heeeey, I wonder if people are on these services yet…”
Still no.
Use lists on bsky to find people.
And just gained a million people, biggest spike yet. So should be a bit more active.
Yeah, but won’t those 1 million all be speaking spanish?
It’s 2m now.
And plenty of them pick up English online
*Portuguese
Potato/Tomato.
I guess some people don’t get the joke.
The sayings potato/potahto and tomato/tomahto mean they’re the same thing.
No one in their right mind would say a potato is a tomato or vice versa, just like no one would ever argue Portuguese and Spanish are the same. They’re both of a category (veggies and languages respectively) but totally different and distinct items within that category.
Nope, portuguese
Also no one pays attention to language settings on Mastodon so your threads are full of German and French speakers with no way to filter them.
This is the thing I dislike more about Mastodon, I do not know if Lemmy handles it differently, but I don’t have this problem with Lemmy.
Mastodon revolves around following topics and hashtags, not individuals. I learned that early on, and am having a much better experience.
Well then it will never be useful for me. I want to follow PEOPLE. I want people to follow me for the random shit I say.
Then they retweet the random shit, and now a whole NEW group of people can wonder what’s wrong with me.
there’s plenty of that going on, too, just not on as large a scale.
If you start following hashtags, then you find interesting people. There are also curated lists that you can sign up for. That will introduce you to a lot of new content.
I follow hashtags I like, then see who the people are who use those tags, then follow those people.
I find that I discover people that way I would not have found otherwise.
It’s worked well for me so far. I wasn’t a twitter person before though, so I don’t know if I have the experience you did for comparison.
See, I already know who I want to follow. I want to follow Nintendo. I want to follow Game Grumps. I want to follow my local pro wrestling indy. I want to follow MXRPlays.
But none of them are on the fediverse. Although, Andy Richter is on BlueSky. So that’s something…I guess…
Ah, yeah fair point there.
Then it’s not the platform for you.
IIRC there’s an iOS only frontend that fills that niche.
Also there is a trending section but its hidden behind the “explore” page, along with the search function. One of many reasons I really don’t like Mastodon.
Put hashtags on your random shit and more people will find it
I’m going to copy/paste my last comment. You tell me what hashtag I’m supposed to use.
ABYSS LOVES CHICKEN WINGS!!!
CLAP-CLAP-CLAPCLAPCLAP
Sounds like a worse lemmy 😅
Not really. In terms of engaging with posts, oh my god, absolutely it’s worse. Twitter and its clones suck when it comes to engaging with things people post (but Mastodon at least makes it a bit better by increasing the character limit). But there’s just something different about following a hashtag versus following a Lemmy community. Like for example, when it comes to getting highly detailed, up-to-the-minute news about things, Mastodon beats Lemmy every time. Additionally, I can see people’s random, one-off takes that wouldn’t really warrant a post on Lemmy.
I would argue too that it’s not even true that you should just be focused on following hashtags, but rather that you should be trying to do both.
To me, Lemmy is the type of place I could kill two hours; for Mastodon, it’s maybe 15 minutes, but that doesn’t make it inferior, just a different use-case. It’s pretty apples-to-oranges.
There’s algorithms you can subscribe to and use to discover people based on your interests. Theres also algorithms that show you posts based on who you follow and what posts you like. You can also enable your normal Following feed to show you some algorithm posts
I’m following like 3 people. One is a bot that reposts things from twitter. One is a bot that posts local weather. And one is what I THOUGHT was Nintendo, but turns out it’s just Nintendo@Lemmy.World.
Well that’s the issue then stop following bots? Look up a hashtag or keyword and find people or subscribe to one of the many algorithms
The over policing thing is so true. I’ve gotten messages from techhub.social mods with warnings about making jokes that even hinted at breaking one of their precious rules. Like if I did something wrong, ban me I guess. It’s pretty clear I didn’t and the mod just wanted to flex his power towards me.
- Is bigger than the rest.
Take Brazil. Blusky saw the writing on the wall with Twitter, so they threw a ton of money into media. Guess where everyone went.
Do you have a source for that?
Nothing specific, just knowledge from those closer, and not likely they’ll publicize ad spend, but uptick was seen. Bluesky ads started around April when they had the big influx after the first suspension. Overview, but not a reference: https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/articles/cm2nkdkypk7o
Absolutely agree with point 2, not just for Mastodon, but others like here on Lemmy or Misskey or whatever it may be.
The process of finding an instance can sometimes be annoying because you might find an instance that sounds alright, like I did for Mastodon, and then find that there’s the problem of sign-ups not available. That, and signing up for the instance I got on then had a waiting period for account review and all that before I could do anything.
I assume, from what I’ve heard, all you gotta do for threads and bluesky is just sign up and start posting with less effort, which is what the majority of people want.
If Mastodon wins out in the long run the only reason will be persistence.
All these other “like Twitter but ______” micro blogging or whatever sites only stay viable while they’re profitable.
If Bluesky or Threads become (net) unprofitable, they’ll die. Mastodon is already unprofitable, so that can’t kill it.
I think we could compete with #1 just by word of mouth.
For #2 some person or group needs to develop a Mastodon app (FOSS obviously) that has a “just do this part for me” option, probably automatically enabled.
#3 is on us. We have to do what we can to make Mastodon (and Lemmy) more open and accepting without falling pretty to the paradox of tolerance.
#4 is hard… Although I think if Mastodon follows or tries to replicate the “early” Facebook user experience where most or all of the content people got was from people they follow, that could be better. The only challenge is that algorithms tickle our anger/hate/disgust impulses to drive and maintain engagement. That’s some very strong “lizard brain” stuff.
So… let’s get going y’all! :)
I think we could compete with #1 just by word of mouth.
There’s no way in hell, even if you ignore #5
Marketing, sure, but the onboarding from Instagram was a massive factor for Threads growth.
There are some advantages to algorithms for discovery - it’s certainly is more user friendly. It’s just a shame they tend to enshitify or become toxic. Bluesky seem to offer an API of sorts to plug in feeds you create. Perhaps open algorithms are more accountable?
- There are more people there.
- Fewer people even know the Fediverse exists at all.
- Mastodon (where most would probably move from Twitter) has a reputation for being more difficult to use.
Its easier to just sign up and find everyone immediately, than to go learn what are instances and which one should you choose to make an account on, and then go and learn how to find other people that are not on that instance, or how to check do they have a mastodon account at all, then go and learn how to XY.
The “go and learn” is something that people, most of them, just don’t want to do. If you need to learn how to use something, this is the first indicator of a bad user experience. It should be obviously easy for a new person to get around.
In addition to many of the fine points made in other comments I think it’s silly to overlook the power of celebrity worship and weird-ass parasocial relationships with famous people.
There exists a large number of people who aren’t really interested in discussing <topic_x>, they just want to know what <favourite celebrity whos life I have deluded myself into thinking is attainable by me> thinks about the topic so that they can regurgitate it and feel like they’re “the same”.
I’m sure if Chappell Roan or whatever “the kids” think is cool these days had jumped to Mastodon we’d be seeing something very different. TBH I’m mildly surprised that we didn’t see more record labels standing up instances. It’s always boggled me that people have just trusted the service desperately trying to be known as “X” as an authority on identity.
One reaon for why any company would rather just an x alternative rather start up a lemmy or mastodon instance of their own is externalize the responsibility. If someone else run the site then you can’t be blamed when it goes down
Don’t forget about moderation. It’s all fun and games until someone starts posting hate speech, copyrighted material, porn (legal or otherwise) or worse…
Mastodon and the fediverse in general are weirdly user-unfriendly, and then some fucking programmer pops in to say,
“Oh! You can fix that! All you have to do is hop over to their github page and…”
Lol
If they can make the user experience good, we might get the basis for a new internet, but they’d have to build it first.
weirdly user-unfriendly
I thought that was a feature
