It’s funny when armchair experts insist that the fediverse won’t catch on because “federation is too hard to understand” when arguably the most widespread communication system on the internet follows the same model
You must log in or # to comment.
Yeah and then google+microsoft rolled in and killed the decentralized nature of email with gmail and outlook.
Only sign left of the good ol days is merged accounts with @ old domain names and the few that self host.
@yahoo.com is still somewhat popular among us old farts.
Among us 😳📮
I would be one of you if they didn’t purge my accounts years ago. The trust will never return.
It’s not really like they were evil about it though. Google attracted customers through its huge (at the time) 1 GB email storage space, which at the time, was unbelievably generous and also impressive in that it was offered for free. Outlook (Hotmail at the time) also drew in customers by offering the service for free, anywhere in the world, without needing to sign up for Internet service. Remember, at the time, e-mail was a service that was bundled with your Internet service provider.
Into the mid-2000s and 2010s, the way that Gmail and Outlook kept customers was through bundle deals for enterprise customers and improvements to their webmail offerings. Gmail had (and arguably, still has) one of the best webmail clients available anywhere. Outlook was not far behind, and it was also usually bundled with enterprise Microsoft Office subscriptions, so most companies just decided, “eh, why not”. The price (free) and simplicity is difficult to beat. It was at that point that Microsoft Outlook (the mail client, not the e-mail service) was the “gold standard” for desktop mail clients, at least according to middle-aged office workers who barely knew anything about e-mail to begin with. Today, the G-Suite, as it is called, is one of the most popular enterprise software suites, perhaps second only to Microsoft Office. Most people learned how to use e-mail and the Internet in the 2000s and 2010s through school or work.
You have to compare the offerings of Google and Microsoft with their competitors. AOL mail was popular but the Internet service provided by the same company was not. When people quit AOL Internet service, many switched e-mail providers as well, thinking that if they did not maintain their AOL subscription, they would lose access to their mailbox as well.
Google and Microsoft didn’t “kill” the decentralised e-mail of yesteryear. They beat it fair and square by offering a superior product. If you’re trying to pick an e-mail service today, Gmail and Outlook are still by far the best options in terms of ease of use, free storage, and the quality of their webmail clients. I would even go so far as to say that the Gmail web client was so good that it single-handedly killed the desktop mail client for casual users. I think that today, there are really only three legitimate players left if you’re a rational consumer who is self-interested in picking the best e-mail service for yourself: Proton Mail if you care a lot about privacy, and Gmail or Outlook if you don’t.
It is also worth considering that yes, MS and Google have definitely dominated the market through superior products, but the standards they’ve pushed for and established have also made it difficult for other players to enter. If we wanted to say that the federated nature of email is dead, I think that’s a fair argument still.
Hosting your own email server is quite difficult. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to land in anyone’s mailbox without assistance. If you want to make a mailing list, you basically need to use a mailing service, lest you get blacklisted by major systems owned by MS and Google. Much of this is a byproduct of spam, by which I don’t blame Google and MS for doing their best to protect against, but at the same time they have more or less neutered some core aspects of what made email accessible.
Google and Microsoft didn’t “kill” the decentralised e-mail of yesteryear. They beat it fair and square
Sure, they might’ve cornered the market fair and square, but they’re certainly doing anticompetitive things in keeping it cornered.
Just try setting up a mail server not connected to any of the big corpos (Google, MS, Cloudflare or their clients with more niche marketing) and see who will actually recieve your mails. You most likely won’t land into the Spam folder either.
Nice to see someone else was around when the lore was written :D
In NZ instead of AOL it was xtra and Paradise.
Nobody point how much Email sucks!
I really wish email had a built-in aliases feature. Like, so you can create unlimited new addresses that just point to your normal inbox. That would help so much with spam, since you could just block individual aliases. I know some email providers have this feature, but usually it’s paid. Plus Addressing is also nice, but it does nothing to hide your “real” address. Also I’m disappointed that end-to-end encrypted email is basically never used by normal people.
After email comes matrix. If you include all systems based on matrix, there are hundreds of millions of users already.
It’s funny when armchair experts insist that the fediverse won’t catch on because “federation is too hard to understand” when arguably the most widespread communication system on the internet follows the same model
Because you don’t need to understand email to use it.
There have been decades of software and user interface advancements that have made the usage of email extremely simple and straightforward.
People also inherently grasp the idea of it because they understand the real world concept of mail.
Email is also one way. You aren’t sending mail to and receiving mail from everyone, or reading mail one person sent to another. You’re just sending something to an address.
Email also doesn’t have any confusion around which mailboxes are allowed to speak to each other.
The fediverse is no near that simple or intuitive.
Particularly Lemmy because Lemmy admins have fundamentally broken the idea of federation with defederation. It doesn’t matter what email you use or what email the receiver uses. It does actually matter what instance you’re on.
Lemmy admins have fundamentally broken the idea of federation with defederation.
How very IRC of them.
Be a better admin. I’ll join your instance once it’s set up.
Ah, I see. A youngling who never heard of the usenet.
It was broken before then, the whole distributed user and instances is hard for the average non techy. This is the same issue Linux has. People say “just install Linux” but when the person Google’s it, they get destroyed with 30 plus flavors and don’t understand what to do.
deleted by creator
Mastodon is objectively more popular than lemmy. But comparing them to email as a whole is a bit deceptive, a better comparison would be Mastodon and Gmail, or ActivityPub and Email.
Dutch tech news site Tweakers.net kept saying that it was too hard… *head desk*
I can’t believe XMPP is not a standard
It was.
In fact, for about 3 weeks, Facebook and gtalk could exchange message seamlessly and easily over their fed gateway and xmpp.
Seeing a problem with this, FB changed. With it being at least 4.5 weeks since the last complete redesign incompatible with the old, Google also changed to something that sucked.
Since we are on a decentralized platform & many of us care about federation, do yourself a service & read this little history lesson: How to Kill a Decentralised Network (such as the Fediverse) (archived)
It is a standard, starting at RFC 6120. Everyone can use it today. 😃
Yes, but not open like the e-mail.
Not open? Wat
Technically, whatsapp, telegram, signal, even the chat of some online games are XMPP, but the servers are closed to be able to interact with other ones so they can become a monopoly…
That doesn’t mean it isn’t an open standard, that means they are using it as a closed system. This isn’t a case of XMPP not being open, it’s a case of servers using it choosing not to be open. Therefore the problem isn’t XMPP not being open, it’s services themselves not being open. As an example Reddit uses Matrix in their awful chats function, but you can’t message other matrix users there or message reddit users from Matrix. That doesn’t make Matrix not open, it means someone is using it in a way that isn’t open to others.
The ability to defederate arguable makes it more free & open even if it isn’t what I would prescribe.
I recall having some fun with League of Legends when you could just join chat & chat rooms thru a regular XMPP client. This was convenient at work on Linux to not need a working client to catch important messages from teammates. But everyone wants a walled garden now.
That I was trying to say, but seems I was unable to say it right.
Usenet?
IRC, bulletin boards that had links to each other…. The old net was decentralised by default.
IRC has entered the chat
Irc is not federated, though. Servers don’t talk to each other
Networks don’t, but many servers are used to create a single network.
Efnet isn’t a single server. Freenode isn’t a single server, etc.
… but lemmy and masto do completely different things
masto’s a microblogging platform like twitter and lemmy is a link aggregator like reddit
honestly i kinda wish there were a rebuild of email that is compatible with the old system but was redesigned from the ground up to do the job better
I’m not technical enough to think it through carefully but I’ve always thought there was an opportunity for an organization like USPS to develop email 2.0 - something that gives people some kind of verifiable and secure email address so that users can easily find each other whilst filtering out spam (or to have spam taken into consideration in the design at the outset). You would design it based on strict standards that would be difficult to get around so that big tech could not easily co-opt it, and adopt for some kind of critical function (taxes, voting maybe?) so that it would encourage adoption en masse. Make it distributed so that users can selfhost it easily, safely, and securely.
Yeah man if I were in charge of the post office I’d definitely push for that AND the return of postal banking. Every post office in the United States would be your one stop service for this email so if there are authentication issues or anything you can actually go there and talk to a PERSON, IN-PERSON.
You would use this system specifically for official government correspondence, and also it’d be better for job seeking too - any situation where you need to be communicating as YOURSELF, fully verified.
I’d even throw in social media features. Forums, microblogging, live chat groups… however, everyone’s identity is clear and certain. No anonymity here. There is privacy insofar as what’s between you and the government stays between you and the government, but if you want anonymity and to express opinions without someone knowing who you are, that’s to be done elsewhere.
Instead of a social media website that lies to you and pretends dishonestly to give you privacy, this would have to be up front about the fact that it’s public property. A town square where you’re wearing a name tag. If you don’t want your neighbors knowing your rhetorical positions, post them elsewhere. Those other places, private services, and important and need to exist as counterbalance.
I’m sure many criminals would be stupid enough to use it for human trafficking and contraband smuggling shit though so that’ll help uncover and discipline rogue elements.
I don’t care if it catches on, I’m enjoying it here where the people are still awesome.
It does not though. I made a post the other day from the StarTrek.website instance and couldn’t figure out if nobody had upvoted or commented on it, then tried to look it up on my regular discuss.online instance where it didn’t exist, then went further to look it up on Lemmy.world (where the community is located) and saw that tens of people had. I wasn’t able to respond to any of those at first though, until it caught up on an instance where I already had an account.
And that wasn’t even the only time that very same day that I saw a post existing/not existing and/or having a different number of comments and differences in voting counts. Perhaps 0.19.6 will help with some of these issues, at least on Lemmy but then PieFed, Mbin, and eventually Sublinks are still going to have to figure things out on their own as well.
So I am glad that things are going well for you who I note is on Lemmy.world, but the rest of the Fediverse is definitely struggling, in part because rather than in spite of that centralization. Also I note that Lemmy.world federating smoothly within itself doesn’t even count in my book as “federation” at all! That’s just Reddit 2.0 with everything on a single server, with all the benefits and pitfalls which that entails.
More generally when the subject is man vs. bear, and someone chooses bear, it doesn’t help to simply laugh at those making that choice. Maybe we should listen, and maybe even expend efforts to make changes to become more welcoming for more people that would absolutely love to get off of the likes of Reddit, X, Threads, or Facebook?
That’s my 2¢ anyway.
This smells like ego projection. These are tools for jobs, they don’t have to compete.
What on earth are you talking about?? Of course they don’t have to compete. It’s a meme. It’s meant to be funny, not accurate. What does my ego have to do with anything?
It’s alright, it’s art. You can’t expect it to reach everyone the same way.
Usenet/IRC/BBS sitting in the background like: Am I a joke to you?
IRC was “kinda” federated. You needed to convince a server already in the network to accept your server. But in the early days requirements were quite low.
BBS was not really federated (except Fidonet I guess).
Usenet, I guess it kinda was. But only ISPs were really running NNTP servers. Only they and unis really had the resources to too.
And XMPP (1999).
Oh Jabber the true RCS of the day.
