This is like asking do I have the flu or is my car on fire? Maybe and yes.
The various opportunists engaging in MAGA’s takeover of the US government are out to loot the palace and steal all the silverware, and being the geniuses they are they’ve decided to replace the guards with street thugs and turn off all the smoke detectors while they roast weenies in the drawing room. So yeah, there’s a chance they might burn the place down.
But our illusions are definitely falling away. Today’s expectations are based on the belief that the post-WWII boom of the 1950s was just a healthy economy in a healthy state, instead of the giant anomaly it really was. The boom came about because during the war millions of ordinary people were fully employed and well paid in defense jobs, and they accumulated savings. They had been raised during the Great Depression to be hyper-thrifty, and because of rationing and war production there wasn’t a lot to buy anyway. So when industry transitioned back to consumer goods, people had money to spend, and lots of exciting shiny new things to spend it on - televisions, dishwashers, “automatic” everything. Spending created more jobs and higher salaries, and prosperity spiraled up.
By 1960 the spiral was over, and should have ended, but the business world put it on life support by handing out consumer credit like candy. This went on for the next few decades, until being in debt up to your eyeballs became the new normal.
In the actual American Dream people had actual money, not a “credit score”. The illusion is that they’re the same. But really one is prosperity and the other is getting conned.
It’s definitely a low point.
Why not both?
Social media across all major platforms is being manipulated to make everyone more stressed, everything seem more chaotic and hopeless. It’s probably a certain foreign power that’s working on taking over the dominant position of the globe but it’s also allowed and even assisted by domestic social media companies because it drives more views.
The American empire isn’t falling, it’s changing to become more corrupt and authoritarian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_removal
Modern event seem like business as usual. Subjugation is in our cultural DNA.
Both. Fascism has always been at the root of American society (just ask a black person), but now it’s surfacing and that will bring the empire down.
We’ll only know for sure in hindsight tbh
Of course it’s 20/20.
No, it’s 2025.
Both.
Definitely both. The whole idea of law is basically just a collective myth. If that myth breaks down, law breaks down, societies break down.
It’s not a myth, its a social contract.
True, but there are many people who don’t have that understanding, and treat it as immutable and sacred…
Today we will begin our lesson with a discussion on The Dangers of Dogmatism. Class is now in session and will be for eternity. There will be a test at the end.
Based
It’s the fall of the Republic and the start of the Empire.
It’s not inevitable, but it is possible for the first time in living memory, and no one seems to be willing or capable of stopping it in a way that’s worth doing
America was always an empire, they just didn’t call it that.
You know in Russia they still have elections and representatives. What makes you think they’ll get rid of the pantomime?
What makes you think it was a Republic before Trump? When was the last time anyone in the west felt represented by a representative democracy?
They’re all kind of bullshit at what they’re supposed to do.
So is it just important to have a plausible pantomime? Is that what it comes down to, having a believable illusion of democracy?
You could be right but I hope your are wrong.
I personally think that the US will eventually be fine. It’ll be messy, but as long as there’s no nukes, we’ll be around. Every government falls, but the people tend to remain. I believe that even this government is technically salvageable, it’d just require a very well planned takeover. More important, is the planet’s decline theoretically fixable?
Two party system needs to end.
Hello one party system
No no no, not like this…
One finger curls on the monkeys paw, wish granted
US will be fine as USSR thought it would be fine.
There are other examples of possibilities than the USSR.
Western Europe gave up most of their colonial possessions after WW2. They ended up fine. Arguably better off, even.
Ancient Rome went through many periods of crisis and getting their shit back in order. The Eastern half of the Empire went on for about another 1000 years after the split–it lasted almost long enough to see Columbus get completely lost and stumble on some land. At one point, it held almost the whole territory of the original Roman empire, albeit briefly.
There are a million ways this can go. Liberal America could reassert itself more or less as it was. It could break into coalitions of loosely affiliated states kinda like Prussia. It could undergo great reforms and fix a lot of problems with its structure of government. I couldn’t even guess which is more likely right now.
I don’t know if you know this. But most of the people in the former USSR are pretty okay. Not the best, but improving, and alive. If the US split into 10 or more countries, then most of them would be decently well off. There’s nowhere near a guarantee of that happening. Empires rise and fall al the time.
That planet will be fine, humans maybe not so much.
The planet as a rock. Not nature. There’s a mass extinction going on and those animals and plants will never recover.
It recovered from a massive asteroid hit and recovered from many mass extinction events that were worse than us. Will all the other species we have now be fine? Probably not but the planet and nature will eventually recover there will be some species that persist and a couple hundred million years later a new species will grow to reign the planet. We aren’t that special
We are that special, in 4 billion years only one species has done what we have done. For better or worse. It’s not certain conditions will be right for it to happen again
No we really arent, an asteroid did more than we ever could in a shorter time frame even if we detonated every single nuke on the planet we wouldnt come close to that level of destruction and carbon release. The planet has recovered from far worse than humans. All you need is bacteria and another billion years and life will emerge again in the worst of scenarios. Not to mention life even started with worse conditions then we can create today. It’s such human hubris to assume we are doing anything more but killing ourselves and the species we rely on for our dominance.
I’m talking about sapiens not human caused extinctions.
eventually recover there will be some species that persist and a couple hundred million years later a new species will grow to reign the planet.
That is far from guaranteed
I’m talking about sapiens not human caused extinctions.
Yeah, we really aren’t that special though lets be real here. We act like we are the only emotional animals, only animals who think, etc. There are plenty of examples with other species demonstrating similar phenomenon and if humans were out of the picture there is nothing that would prevent another species from evolving and becoming sapient like humans.
That is far from guaranteed
Nothing is guaranteed but none of the damage we are doing has the potential to do any more harm than the planet has endured in the past and shown to bounce back from remarkably well and creating new species, ecosystems etc. The only thing far from guaranteed is us actually destroying all life on the planet. So much has to go “right” for that to happen, whereas for life to continue the planet, nature just needs to evolve and continue as it has done numerous times in the past.
Listen, if you want to say we are destroying certain species, environments, etc. I’m not going to disagree with you. But the planet and life in general has bounced back from worse situations than any man made catastrophe can do at this point. To act like we are some special life that has the ability to destroy our planet the only species that can evolve to be “advanced” (if you call figuring out creative ways to slowly kill ourselves advanced lol) you are just demonstrating the human god complex fallacy thats lead to creation myths and tales of God’s creating us in their image. We are nothing more than another animal on the planet, everything we create is a natural product of nature. What we deam unnatural compounds will eventually be a food source for some bacteria or mold like species down the line, just like wood. Whether we will be around for that future is the question realistically, not if it will happen.
whew, relieves me to know me and everything i love is gonna die, but the rock we live in is gonna keep existing. so uplifting!
Neither. The US dollar can’t readily be replaced as reserve currency.
The US Military sector will be fine.
You’ve done shitty things before, and had various states of psuedo fascism before.
US debt has always been meaningless (little more than a political buggaboo).
…and you’ve lost the world’s respect before by voting in idiots, stripping away rights, and destroying minorities.
Nothing particularly new is happening.
Country’s don’t disappear so easily.
Nothing particularly new is happening.
The US going full-on German Reich is new.
The US Military sector will be fine.
As a retired veteran, I’d like to point out that this topic is a bit too complicated to summarize as “fine.”
The military industry itself with be fine. Heck, it may thrive! But the individuals who make up that military will definitely experience hardship along the way.
During Trump’s first term as president, he tried to ban trans people from serving with an executive order. Which he can do as Commander in Chief over the military. That order was very quickly shut down though, because we had a mostly Democrat government that pushed back against anything extreme he attempted that didn’t benefit both parties’ goals. He had his hands tied more than once, which is why his first term was relatively quiet. Back then, I was still serving and I remember our military leaders standing up to Trump on that order and making him back down.
During this second term though, Republicans have a majority in the federal government and have basically given Trump a blank check to do whatever he wants with little pushback. So trans people ARE banned now, and he’s replaced a bunch of high ranking generals with his own civilian yes men, giving them rank and authority without a career of military service or going through proper legal approval processes. The military leaders told him no once, so he’s replaced them with his own loyalists who won’t challenge his executive orders now.
Not to mention, with the push for ICE to round up anyone who’s (essentially) not white, we’re seeing military members and their families affected by that as well. There was a time when serving in our military was a sort of fast-track to citizenship. I worked with a guy once who was Brazilian, but by serving a term in the US military, he would earn his citizenship and get to stay in America. That’s going away under Trump’s new regime.
And Trump is talking about gaining access to voting records, which would just give him more incentive to target anyone who doesn’t vote Republican. Everyone, military or not, will be affected if it comes to that. Being an active service member as our country falls to fascism isn’t a free pass; if you don’t believe in the new order, you’re going to be targeted and, at best, kicked out. At worst, you could be labeled a terrorist threat to our nation and “disappeared” to Guantanamo Bay.
Also, as a 100% disabled veteran, I’m only retired now because my VA pay and benefits can cover my meager and quiet lifestyle without taking on another job. But if Trump has his way, my benefits will be a fraction of what they are (if not removed completely), and I’d be forced to find work to survive.
Military members (and especially veterans) will suffer. But the military industrial complex will be fine.
Country’s don’t disappear so easily.
Tell that to the USSR
Never heard of it
Russia is still on the map… before the USSR was the Tsar… but it was still Russia the whole time, and it’s still Russia today.
America ain’t going anywhere.
Russia is not the USSR. Read a history book my dude. The USSR was much more than just Russia.
But Tsarist Russia, the USSR and modern Russia all believed themselves to be Russians, living in Russia.
The USSR was a system, countries change, but it was all Russia. You said “read a book my dude” (which was a lame thing to say)… But if you were to take your own advice and picked up a book on the history of RUSSIA (the country)… It would include all these era as sections of that book.
Because they’re all parts of the history, of the country called Russia. It didn’t disappear just because it changed. It’s a landmass.
So maybe take your own advice here. Pick up a book on the country… See that it’s still there “my dude”. 😎
Is Italy the same thing as the Roman Empire?
Here’s my exact statement from my comment which this thread is a child of:
“Country’s don’t disappear so easily.”
You want to talk to OP about the “American Empire”… And how you all want it to stick around and keep invading countries for oil. That’s your call, but it doesn’t relate to the above statement.
You can have your own thread about that, but my statement was about countries. Not empires.
Countries like actual landmasses with coordinates and stuff? I don’t think that was ever really in question.
The US dollar can’t readily be replaced
You’d be surprised… no, you’d be shocked :)
I read that in Trump’s voice.
Yes, the dollar remains entrenched. Yes, military dominance buys time. But the accumulation of social fragmentation, institutional decay, global distrust and unchecked corporate influence isn’t new or far from inconsequential.
Oh yeah, your democracy is fucked. But you asked about the “American Empire”, which has hardly been about having a strong democracy.
In fact, in many ways Empire and Democracy are opposing forces.
Plenty of Empires have been undemocratic (you won’t be the first). So is your question about Empire, or Democracy now?
Empire and democracy often clash. The U.S. has long sold itself as both. If the democratic side collapses the whole narrative falls apart.
America is barely a democracy, you either choose Democrats or Republicans.
Both of them are horrible options, one clearly far worse than the other, but both suck.
In practice you have one more government to choose from than a dictatorship
The narrative of being a corrupt “democracy” (that’s really a plutocracy), which lives mostly by having the largest military industrial complex in the world and invading smaller resource rich nations?
You think THAT narrative is about to fall apart? How so?
As far as empires go, it’s not even an original narrative. It’s how most Empires have acted.
I mean you guys have always been manifest destiny, America’s the best place on earth, gerrymandering, money is votes, corporations are people, donations are political free speech, loud, assholes. What are you saying is going to change?
Cracks are widening. Empires don’t fall for being corrupt, they fall when the cost of holding it all together stops being worth it.
Oh you think it’s costing Trump and his cohorts too much money to be worth it anymore?
I don’t think so - I think they’ve all massively increased their wealth whilst in office. So what cost are you talking about?
Nothing particularly new is happening.
I dunno man. I’m not very old but it seems like lots of shit is happening now that has never happened here.
I’m probably older than you:
Nazis held a rally in Madison Square Garden once. Gitmo held people in cages, set dogs on people, did water boarding torture, then even more extreme torture was done via extraordinary rendition.
The patriot act changed people’s rights, invaded people’s privacy, as did PRISM. Obama killed American citizens, as did the Move Bombing.
America has done lots of stuff like this before, lots of it’s been ongoing since before Trump… For instance Border Patrol existing in a grey area of legality, and having basically no oversight.
The US dollar can’t readily be replaced as reserve currency.
Nixon took the USD off the gold standard over a banking holiday. It may not be replaced but if trade goes on a gold exchange, which seems like BRICS might do, it can happen fast.
Gold isn’t a feasible world reserve currency. It might be handy to have, but most people don’t have it. Where as the number of US bills in global circulation (M0) is so large, that any country wishing to print/distribute enough of their currency to replace it - would automatically depreciate that currency many times over.
The world uses the US dollar as the reserve currency because it already got everywhere, it’s already out there in people’s hands in the strangest of places. Mostly where borders meet, and instability exist.
America’s hard power would have to decline far far far faster than it currently is… and I can’t think of what would make that happen. Maybe if Trump passes a law that all US military vehicles have to be dismantled and destroyed? Outside of that, the US dollar as the reserve currency will likely remain.
Also BRICS may not have enough gold in reserve to back their currencies, and it’s unlikely so many countries would all agree to risk that instability all at once. So I don’t agree with your idea that “it can happen fast”.
…all that said, America’s real problem is that it probably doesn’t have a democracy anymore. Like, unless participation and protest numbers go through roof - that part of America may be… damaged beyond repair. That’s what citizens should be focusing on.
All of those things remain true until one day they don’t. Do you really think that the United States and its position on top of the world is eternal?
I think the idea that America was always “On top of the world, world’s number 1 best at everything” has always been a joke. Different countries are “the best in the world” at different things. Like, look up any list on Wikipedia “by country” and maybe you’ll get that.
If you’re still spouting “But America was best in the world at everything” nonsense - you’re probably lost… and it’s probably all just about Americans losing their illusions about American greatness.
America is great, but lots of people wouldn’t want to live there, and it’s far from being the world’s number 1 at everything.
On top of the world
As far as I know, it is just a whole lot of ice there…
It’s just a phase.
Ha ya think, maybe a 4 year phase hopefully.
Trump was first elected in 2016, which is almost a decade ago now.
The voters that elected Trump will still be around after Trump’s heart explodes from hamberder overload.
Fall of what?
Its always been like that. Civillizations rise and fall all the time throughout history. Its normal.
it’s an illusion of a fall.
